Bhaloo and Sachedina did not discuss their Affidavits with the Imam.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

---

Sachedina #28 - #33:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. Now, you said you have reviewed Mr. Bhaloo's Affidavit?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you review it when it was drafted right initially, or after it was sworn by him?
A. The Affidavit itself?
Q. Yes.
A. I had seen a situation from before, what he was saying in his own Affidavit, and it was actually the counsel who actually sent me the final copy of it.
Q. After it was signed?
A. Yes. Of course I have seen a draft before that, but it actually was signed by -- and I was sent, really, the copy of it.
Q. Now, your Affidavit as well as Mr. Bhaloo's Affidavit, the draft version, did you review that with His Highness?
A. I didn't review it myself. I didn't review it. The counsel had, but I certainly didn't personally give it to His Highness myself.
Q. And did you discuss with His Highness the contents of your Affidavit or Mr. Bhaloo's Affidavit?
A. Not with him personally.

---

Sachedina #830 - #833:
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. Okay. Have you seen Mr. Bhaloo's Affidavit before he signed it?
A. Sorry?
Q. Have you seen Mr. Bhaloo's Affidavit before he signs it?
A. Mr. Bhaloo's Affidavit before he signed this? I saw a version of it.
Q. Okay. A draft?
A. Yes, there was a draft that was -- he had prepared, but, as I say, he then himself dealt with it because, as I say --
Q. That's fine.
A. It's not my responsibility. But he did say that he was just making sure that I find my -- as far as I'm concerned, my own visit dates and what you have already said is here, now all is in there.

---

Bhaloo #6:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. When this Affidavit was drafted, did you discuss what contents to put in, what to mention, with anybody else?
A. No, I did not.

Mr. Sachedina is the one who asked Mr Bhaloo to be a witness. No word on who decided that Mr Sachedina should be a witness.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

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Sachedina #25 - #26:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. With respect to this litigation, whose decision was it that you and Mr. Bhaloo should be giving evidence?
A. The decision for -- whose decision it was?
Q. Yes.
A. I realized that some of the facts require Mr. Bhaloo, who was present at only one of the meetings that I know of, and then he was also present, I believe, at the -- or he was in the leadership at the time of one of the other --

Sachedina says that only 2 people were involved in the issuing of the Statement Of Claim: Sachedina and Manji. Sachedina has a hard time pinpointing when the Imam gave the go-ahead to proceed with the Statement of Claim.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

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Sachedina #515 - #519:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. When did His Highness tell you that he has decided to issue this Statement of Claim?
A. When did?
Q. When did he tell you?
A. In fact, he discussed this matter the -- after the letter was sent, the second letter was sent, he
did speak to me and the president, Mohamed Manji that --
Q. Together?
A. No. He spoke to me and I believe he spoke to Mohamed separately, and then he sent us, you know, from his point of view a message to speak with -- you know, in the sense that there were discussions that we should also discuss amongst ourselves on this matter.
Q. So who discussed?
A. Mohamed and me were only involved, two people, because His Highness wanted to know whether what had happened so far, what are the actions that have happened so far, the fact that these farmans there has been no reaction, that these farmans have not been withdrawn in the sense that these books have not been withdrawn from circulation, so he was concerned.
Q. By the time that you --
A. And he wanted -- sorry. And he wanted to understand whether he continues in this Imam/murid relationship, which is what he wanted to do. And second letter, he felt after the second letter that he had done what is expected of the Imam in his way, and he was rather concerned that there was no action from the other side, from the murids, and he wanted to protect the integrity of his farmans.

---

Sachedina #523 - #527:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. So do you know -- I mean I'm going to ask you as precise as you can be in terms of date or day?
A. I'll try.
Q. Is when did he tell you that he has now decided to issue a Statement of Claim?
A. I think and I can probably -- this letter was in February. I think indications were that he was seriously now, all the avenues were -- he had exhausted the avenues from his perspective, which were that if an imam writes to a murid and a murid does not respond, or at least then went and accused for forgery, that was a serious matter for him. And he felt that if that was the case, then this was a matter of serious concern to him and that to protect the integrity of his works, his moral rights, he wanted to ensure that this, therefore, would have to go where legal recourse would have to come. Because before that we had said, both Mohamed and me, that we would try and resolve this as Imam -- between the Imam and the murid because that was the relationship between the murid and the Imam, that he wanted in the privileged setting to resolve this matter.
Q. Now, I was trying to get --
A. Yes.
Q. -- the date?
A. I think probably towards the end of March or April that he was thinking about -- towards end of March, I think.
Q. That he said he wanted to issue the Claim?
A. Well, that's the time he said, well, look, I think, you know, he would have to deal with it from a legal perspective.

---

Sachedina #766 - #767:
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. Mr. Sachedina, the first announcement which we have already talked about was already talking of legal steps?
A. I -- at least not from my --
Q. That was --
A. The first announcement, as far as I'm concerned, doesn't talk about any legal steps at all, at
least in the --

---

Sachedina #771,:
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. Okay, I'm just referring to the last sentence where it talks of copyright laws.
MR. GRAY: It says --
THE DEPONENT: Yes, but this practice constitutes a breach of the Ismaili Constitution as well as copyright laws, and appropriate steps have been taken to ensure that the unauthorized circulation of copies of these unauthorized publication ceases.

Gray tried to show that he has spoken to the Aga Khan by producing a group photograph including him and The Aga Khan Taken at the Aga Khan Museum Foundation Ceremony.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

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N. Tajdin #481
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. I am showing you a picture, a photograph.
A. Yes?
Q. Do you recognize anybody in that photograph?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Who do you recognize there?
A. The Aga Khan.
Q. That is the Aga Khan?
A. Yes, it is the...
Q. Who is that next to...do you recognize me there, next to the Aga Khan?
A. Yes.
Q. Does that look like me?
A. Yes.
Q. Brian Gray?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recognize anybody else in the photograph?
A. I think...is that not the architect Maki?
Q. That is the architect, yes.
A. And I think from the back, I see Mohamed Manji.
Q. You see Mohamed Manji behind the Aga there?
A. Yes.
Q. He is the president of the Ismaili Council for Canada?
A. Yes.
Q. And you see the person at the bottom?
A. This is the foundation ceremony of the Jamatkhana Museum, right?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes.
Q. And you see the other person at the left there; do you know who that is?
A. Who is the other person on the left?
Q. The Aga Khan's right, to the left of the photograph.
A. Aga Khan's right.
Q. To the left, next to the architect.
A. who... There is a lady. I am not sure
Q. Yes, I can tell you that is Bev Oda, the Minister of International Cooperation?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. Do you recognize her now?
A. Yes, I recognize her.
Q. Okay. So, I am standing next to the Aga Khan...
A. Yes.
Q. ...at the foundation ceremony; am I not?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay.
A. There are so many pictures of so many people like that. I collect them.
Q. You collect them?
A. If you should not mind, I would like to get a copy.
Q. You can have a copy. I will give you a copy right now.
A. Thank you.
Q. There you go, here is a copy. Now, how do you explain that, if I have not spoken with the Aga Khan, or have access to him? people...
A. Mr. Gray, I can produce you so many
Q. Sorry?
A. I can produce so many people who are in photographs with the Aga Khan who have not spoken to him.
Q. I see.
A. It doesn't mean anything. Come on.
Q. It means nothing?
A. On that occasion, so many pictures were taken, probably a couple of thousand.
Q. Okay.
A. So many people wanted to have a photograph with the Aga Khan.
Q. So, along with the ten million people that won't convince you, a photograph is not going to convince you?
A. A photograph where you stand near the Aga Khan, I could have been standing there. So what?
MR. GRAY: Okay. Can we mark that as the next exhibit? Number 12. It is a photograph of Brian Gray, the Aga Khan, Bev Oda and an unnamed architect.
Q. Maki?
A. Yes.
Q. Yes, Mr. Maki, at the foundation ceremony of the Aga Khan...
A. Museum, Jamatkhana.
Q. ...Museum in Toronto.
A. He is the architect of the museum.
Q. Okay. It was taken around May...at the time of the ceremony in May of 2010?
A. Yes, end of May.
Q. End of May?
A. Yes.

---

Jiwa #126:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. You saw the photograph of me standing next to the Aga Khan? Did you see that photograph?
A. I have seen the photograph.
Q. You think I did not speak to the Aga Khan?
A. You know what? I will not answer that question. You give your evidence if you want to. Put in an affidavit and we can cross-examine you. Right now you have not given any evidence. You are just counsel.

Mr Sachedina admits twice to saying that the Imam thinks in French and speaks in English.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

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Sachedina #252- #257:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. And you told Mr. Tajdin that Imam 'thinks in French, speaks in English, and makes mistakes, so we edit them, we correct them'?
A. That's his words, not mine.
Q. And you never said that?
A. I didn't say about mistakes. What I said was, and I want to really put it on properly, is that Imam himself had told me that when he makes farmans, he makes extempore farmans. And extempore farmans, when he makes them, he thinks in French, and the farmans are made in English. And it is absolutely correct in my view that farmans of any -- from my point of view any Imam from that point of view, the Imam has his right to review those farmans because the spoken word and then text have to be compared and be satisfied that that is what he wished to be released.
Q. Would you agree with me that that's your opinion?
A. No. It is what the Imam has told me personally.
Q. That he what?
A. That he has made -- it's a long tradition absolutely going back through many, many years.
Q. When you say 'many years,' so Sultan also had the same policy as well?
A. I'm not -- I'm talking about this Imam. I wasn't present with the 48th Imam. I was not working for him. But I can only tell you that Imam reviews this material himself for the last many, many years since I have been working, and he releases it only when he is satisfied with it.
Q. Now, do you have any, either a farman -- right? -- or an article in the Constitution that says that the Imam edits farmans or has to edit farmans or has to approve farmans before they are released for distribution?
A. There's a very clear constitutional mandate. If you read article -- the only people that are authorized to do that are constitutional board. If you look at the article, very clearly article 14 of the Constitution, 14.1(c) clearly says that it is only the Imam who -- it's very clear on -- 14.1 article C is absolutely clear.

---

Sachedina #263:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. I'll come back to that in a second. I just want to focus on the question that I asked you. My question, and I'm going to repeat it again: Is there any article in the Constitution or is there any farman that says before any farman that has been made by the Imam, before it is distributed to the jamats, has to be edited and approved by the Imam? That's my question.
A. Not in the way that you describe.

---

Sachedina #617 - #618:
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. Okay, that's fine. I'm referring to tab D of -- 3(d) -- now you have to bear with me. It's the first time that I am doing an examination. And Shafik, honestly, I think in French, I speak in English.
A. Yes.
Q. So sometimes --
A. Thank you very much. I am grateful. That is first time on record somebody can say that. I thought I was the only one saying that.
MR. GRAY: That's okay. I think probably it's the first time Mr. Sachedina has been examined.

Mr Gray tried to establish that the Imam is aging and in bad health. It was refuted by everyone.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

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N. Tajdin #268:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. I see. Okay. And did you tell this Mr. Ospreay the age of the Aga Khan?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Can you produce for me your instructions to Mr. Ospreay?
A. It was a verbal instruction.
Q. You didn't ask him in writing?
A. No.
Q. Did you tell him...you follow what the Aga Khan...his life, don't you?
A. I follow it very closely.
Q. Very closely. And are you aware of the fact that he had a skiing accident in 2008?
A. Yes, he has had several of those.
Q. He had several accidents in 2008?
A. Yes.
Q. And they were in 2008, weren't they?
A. Yes. In fact, I met, in 2008, or 2009, Dr. Sachedina in Ivory Coast, and he told me that we have fixed completely properly the shoulder of His Highness, and he is like before.
Q. Right. So, you were aware that the skiing accident hurt his shoulder?
A. Yes, I was aware.
Q. And which shoulder was that?
A. Probably the right shoulder.
Q. Right, and are you also aware that the Aga Khan, His Highness, is right-handed?
A. Yes, I am aware.
Q. Okay. Did you tell Mr. Ospreay that His Highness had had a skiing accident in 2008?
A. No, I did not, because he was already back to normal, and that was confirmed to me by Dr. Sachedina in Abidjan during the Golden Jubilee for His Highness.
Q. Did you tell any of the other experts that you retained about the Aga Khan's age?
A. No.
Q. Did you tell any of the other experts about the skiing accident in 2008?
A. No.

---

Jiwa #282 - #284
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. I take it that you also follow events...I take it you also follow events in His Highness' life?
A. I do somewhat, yes. But the accident was publicly known. So even if you are not following, you knew.
Q. So you knew?
A. Yes.
Q. You knew there was an accident in 2008?
A. Yes.

---

Sachedina #586 - #599,
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. And the Imam travels extensively; right?
A. Yes.
Q. I would think he travels all the time. I think he mentioned somewhere that he lives in a suitcase or something, or a briefcase. And I remember a very old interview that he sent that he spent so many hours working in a plane, that's why maybe he made this comment. He's also a sportsman; right? He does ski?
A. Yes.
Q. He drives his own car?
A. He loves.
Q. He loves. I have seen his movie with Princess Zahra on a horse. So the horse --
A. That is his hobby. I don't get involved with any of this.
Q. I just want to make sure that we agree that the Imam is in better shape than you and me. If I can refer to that Imam, I was just looking few days ago at the Pamir Mountains and the Imam is climbing the mountain. It looks very fresh. And I think you are 300 meters behind the Imam trying also to go up the same mountain. Is that a university that he's building in the Pamirs?
A. Yes, there is a University of Central Asia, which is the university in that region, in Kyrgstan, Tajikistan and Kazakhstan. It's --
Q. It's a three-country --
A. Three countries.
Q. And it's a mountain university?
A. Under the treaty of --
Q. Okay.
A. Under the treaty between the Imam and the three presidents of the three countries.
Q. There is no choice but to climb the mountain. Because that's where the campus are; right?
A. In remote areas.
Q. In remote areas.
A. In isolated areas.
Q. Very good. Now, he is also a graduate from Harvard, so he's not like the average person --
MR. GRAY: Please stop here a second. I see the reporter is looking for -- off the record.
BY MR. TAJDIN:
Q. So I guess he probably is using some gadget. I saw you were using a Blackberry. Is the Imam also using a Blackberry?
A. I'm not aware of that.
Q. You are not aware if the Imam --
A. Blackberry, I don't know about the Blackberry.
Q. I will not ask his phone number, promise. But he uses some kind of telephone where you can send messages. I understand he send some messages. So he's quite a modern person in that way?
A. He's an Imam of the Time.

---

Sachedina #834 - #839
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. ...So that day we met in Abidjan.
Q. Yes. That was during the Golden Jubilee; right? Right?
A. Yes.
Q. I guess this is a yes. We talked about the Imam, and you said that his shoulder was completely restored. You remember that conversation?
A. You asked me how Hazar Imam was, and I said to you he's fine. And you said is he all right, and I said yes, he's fine.
Q. Did we talk of his shoulder?
A. You talked to me, as I say, about his accident.
Q. Yes.
A. You asked me the question and I responded.
Q. And you said he was fixed now?
A. Right shoulder is a shoulder injury, that's why.

Mr Sachedina helps to establish that despite there being a few thousand Jamatkhanas, the circumstances of the worldwide ismaili Jamat are such that over 80% of ismailis do not have access to Jamatkhanas or to Farmans.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

---

Sachedina #606-#614:
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. Now, as the head of Jamati Affairs, you have a list of how many jamat khanas there are which are in contact with the Imamat?
A. Yes.
Q. Approximately how many?
A. Of the number of murids or in the global number of countries?
Q. No. Jamat khanas.
A. Oh, jamat khanas. Well, we have in excess of nearly over 5,000-7,000 jamat khanas.
Q. 7,000. And some are in remote areas where there are small villages and few people?
A. Absolutely.
Q. So on the average, that would cover about 2, 3 million Ismailis?
A. Well, yes, possibly. Even more.
Q. There are jamat khanas where there are a thousand people that can sit, and there are some where there are a hundred people that can sit; am I right?
A. There are different size of jamat khanas.
Q. Okay. So if we have to be very generous that about 2, 3 million people have access to jamat khanas, would you agree that not all the people who have access to jamat khanas go to jamat khanas?
A. Access to jamat khanas is out of choice of people being able to go because of their lives, whether they are able to go to the jamat khanas, the proximity of the jamat khanas, the distances people have to travel to jamat khanas. So there are many factors that determine for any member of the community to go to jamat khanas. There could be a jamat khana but they can't get to it because of the distance, whatever it may be. There are many reasons for that.
Q. Okay. Out of 15 million Ismailis, if you have 2 or 3 million at the most who have access -- let's say they all go to jamat khanas, would you agree that 80 per cent of the people do not have access to jamat khanas in our community; they live in regions where there are not yet either a jamat khana or --
A. I'm not able to make that judgment to say to you for sure that is the case. But there is a large proportion, and you know that the Imam of the Time has said that there are many places in the world that there are no jamat khanas, which he will at the time -- at the time of the Golden Jubilee it was one of the goals, was to establish jamat khanas in parts of the world where there has been no access to the jamat khanas. And that is his goal. And therefore he -- there are many, many places in that region of the world where there's a large population and they do not have access to jamat khanas.
Q. Okay. Now, would you agree that people who do not have access to jamat khanas do not have access to farmans?
A. Yes, because -- they would not have access simply that there are no structures, even institutional structures, in some of these places.
Q. True.
A. There has been no constitutional bodies in many of these countries. In fact, till today I can tell you most of these countries do not have constitutional bodies.
Q. Yes. In fact, the Imam mentioned in a farman that there are no constitutional bodies in many, many places where Ismaili --
A. In those parts of the world where there are large jamats, there are in some of these countries what I call the jamats that we are mentioning, majority of the jamats do not have jamati institutional structures. You know, I can give you Russia, central Asia, Afghanistan only just started, western China -- all of these places have a large population, but these are areas of the world where jamat khanas have not been established because there are no constitutional bodies or just about beginning to be established. So it's under the constitutional bodies that jamat khanas -- and there are no traditions in some of these places to have jamat khanas.

Mr Sachedina says that Farmans that we hear in Didars are not actually Farmans and are not to be followed. He maintains throughout his testimony that only the written edited versions sent by ITREB are actually Farmans. Later, Mr Sachedina has to admit that Farmans come from the Noor, the Light of God. Mr Bhaloo says that Talikas containing blessings are not Farmans.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

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Sachedina #301:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. ... Would you agree with me, sir, and you said this earlier, that the jamats are obligated to follow the Imam's farmans and the Constitution?
A. Just as farmans that he has authorized for release to the jamat. Not any farmans. Absolutely what he had given for the jamat, which he has authorized for the jamat, and once he is the one who approves those farmans.

---

Sachedina #542 - #545:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. ... My question to you was that before Mr. Tajdin started distributing these farmans, there were many farmans that were not released by ITREB to the jamat khanas -- to local ITREBs to be read; correct?
A. Because Mowlana Hazar Imam had not authorized the release of those farmans through the process.
Q. So the answer is yes to that?
A. Yes. It was not released because he did not authorize the release.
Q. So you said earlier, if I understand correctly, that the farmans become definite after they are authorized by the Imam?
A. Absolutely. That's my understanding.
Q. And that by His Highness not authorizing, he doesn't want those farmans to be followed; correct?
A. Because they are not farmans. Actually, those farmans have not been authorized or released. That means they don't become effective, and, therefore, they are no longer farmans. They are not made as farmans.

---

Sachedina #511 - #514:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. Now, His Highness, it appears from what you are saying, when he makes his farman, his oral farman, he comes to the jamat khana --
A. Extempore.
Q. Extempore.
--- Off-the-record discussion.
Q. And you are saying that after he approves and finalizes, then it becomes definitely farman?
A. Yes.
Q. Are jamats expected to follow the farman that he has already made, or do they wait until he has authorized the final version?
A. To me, the version that he has authorized become the farmans that are conveyed to the jamat with his authority. So even in my view, and it is my opinion, that even if you had been made aware of a farman to the jamat, the text that he releases after his review are the authorized farmans. Because they have gone the review process by the Imam himself, and he has therefore completed this where there have been -- no, he has reviewed them. If he requires anything, whatever he requires is done, and then in most cases, as I say, he goes through this process and then gets them released. So those are the only ones that are the farmans.

---

Sachedina #622 - #628
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. It's still read in jamat khanas usually 11th of July, the day of the Imamat --
A. Yes. That's the farman of the Imam.
Q. It's a farman which is a recognized farman; right? Can you confirm to me if 'Noor' means 'the Light'? And there is a surah in the Koran, a chapter in the Koran, about the Noor?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it the same Light?
A. The Light, yes.
Q. The Light. It's the Light of God --
A. Yes.
Q. -- which guides materially and spiritually?
A. The Noor of Allah, the Noor of God.
Q. Which guides materially and --
A. Yes.
Q. And this is guided through the Imam's love that Noor is guiding us. And since we are all from the same religion, we all believe in this; right?
A. (Deponent nods head up and down).

---

Bhaloo #143:
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin. `
Q. You would accept that the talika is a written farman?
A. Sometimes the talikas are blessings, not farmans.
Q. Oh, blessings are not farmans?
A. I told you that talikas are sometimes blessings given by the Imam to the individuals, but not instructions in farmans.

Mr. Sachedina maintains that Ginans are just devotional poetry and are not meant to be followed.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

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Sachedina #140
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. Must abide by, yes. And would you also agree with me that the jamat is also asked to obey and follow what's preached in the Ginans, g-i-n-a-n-s, so long as they are not contradicted by a current Imam?
A. Ginans are devotional poetry, and thus as poetry, it is not in a way incumbent for anybody to follow the ginans in the way that you describe. Ginans are, as I say, devotional poetry.

Sachedina#892 - #895
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. Okay. But you agreed that the Usul-e-deen farman, which is very well known in the community, says that farmans and ginans are the same?
A. As I said to you, this was by the past Imam, the 48th Imam.
Q. Is it valid or not?
A. As I said to you, my interpretation, and it is my personal interpretation, that I follow the guidance given by the present Imam always.

Mr Sachedina maintains that he does not follow Farmans of previous Imams.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

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Sachedina #885 - #889:
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. Can I ask you to look at the second page of this. Have you heard of a farman that people refer to as the Usul-e-deen farman --
A. Yes.
Q. In the, not the last paragraph but just before that paragraph, I want to point to this: 'My Farmans themselves are the Ginans!' The Usul-e-deen farman is quite widely circulated in our jamat; do you agree with that?
A. This is -- again, I keep coming back, these are farmans from Sultan Muhammad Shah, and I always -- as I said to you, it is my position very clear, and it's my believe, that every time we look at, first of all, the farmans of the present Imam, they take precedence over any previous farman. And the Imam of the Time is the one -- the farmans that are, from our point of view, in our tariqa. We look at the present Imam's farmans.
Q. That's very good. Mr. Sachedina, would you agree that any farman which has not been superseded is still valid?
A. By the Imam -- living Imam.
Q. So let's say on July '57 the living Imam became Shah Karim, the present Imam. So the farman made two weeks ago by the previous Imam are no longer valid; is that what you are saying?
A. What I'm saying to you is our -- the farmans of -- Imam is Imam, is the present living Imam, and we, as the jamat Ismaili community, follow always the Imam of the Time. So those farmans are the ones that guide our life because he is the present Imam and he makes the farman. It is his farmans that we follow because we have given the bayat to the Imam of the Time.
Q. Thank you for this theological discourse. Now, let me tell you -- isn't it true that the Imam, when he became Imam, the present Imam said 'follow the farman of my grandfather' who was the previous Imam'; right? Isn't it true that he said that in his very first farmans?
A. Well, as I say, I cannot respond to that.

---

Sachedina #892 - #893:
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. Okay. But you agreed that the Usul-e-deen farman, which is very well known in the community, says that farmans and ginans are the same?
A. As I said to you, this was by the past Imam, the 48th Imam.
Q. Is it valid or not?
A. As I said to you, my interpretation, and it is my personal interpretation, that I follow the guidance given by the present Imam always.