Talikas and Farmans are not regular speeches, they are treated with the greatest respect and special ceremonies as Divine words for the Ismaili community.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

---

Bhaloo #142 - #167:
Cross-examination by N. Tajdin
Q. Okay. Mr. Bhaloo, not as a leader, not as a constitutional expert, just as an Ismaili, would you say that a talika and a farman is about the same thing; a talika is a written farman?
A. They're both given by the Imam, yes.
Q. You would accept that the talika is a written farman?
A. Sometimes the talikas are blessings, not farmans.
Q. Oh, blessings are not farmans?
A. I told you that talikas are sometimes blessings given by the Imam to the individuals, but not instructions in farmans.
Q. What about -- let's talk of -- tell me just -- you don't have to reply, just what age are you?
A. Old enough.
Q. Old enough. So in the '60s were you in East Africa?
A. In the 1960s?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Do you remember that period?
A. Parts of it, yes.
Q. Was it Nairobi or Kisumu or someplace around Kenya?
A. Both.
Q. Do you remember at that time when a talika was to be read, it was announced, and Ismailis kotters [ph.] in the street with drums and a person going around saying there is talika tonight?
A. Yes, I believe so.
Q. And the flag was put --
A. I do not think it was the '60s, though. It was the '50s.
Q. It was the '50s. Sorry. I did not think you would remember up to that time. I think you look so young. But, okay, so 50's. And the flag would go up on the jamat khana, and people seeing the flag up would know that there's a talika?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, we both live in Nairobi, so even today when there is a talika, the flag goes up to the jamat khana. Have you noticed that?
A. No, I have not.
Q. You have not noticed?
A. No, I have not.
Q. I would just suggest that it's a good thing to notice.
A. Thank you.
Q. So a talika, when it is read, I just want to go through some of the ceremonies that accompany the talika to show how important it is. Is it true that when a talika is to be read, there is a special ceremony for holy water?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it true that when a person is called to read the talika, usually it's a person of standing, someone very respected?
A. Mr. Gray, these are -- these are really questions dealing with religious matters and --
MR. GRAY: You have to speak up for the --
THE DEPONENT: These are really questions of religious matters, and I don't know whether it's pertinent to the case.
MR. GRAY: It is not pertinent to the case. It's totally irrelevant, in my submission, but I was letting Mr. Tajdin have as much leeway as I thought reasonable. It is really way beyond anything relevant to this case, and so in the interest of --
MR. TAJDIN: Okay, we are trying to define --
MR. GRAY: You're paying for your transcript and so you're paying for my copy of the transcript, so --
MR. TAJDIN: Mr. Gray --
MR. GRAY: Let me finish. You're paying for transcript and I'm paying -- and you're paying for my copy of the transcript. So if you want to go on like this, spending money and time on irrelevant matters, I'm going to let you do that as long as the witness feels comfortable. But when you're exploring these questions of holy water in Nairobi and the talika flag, I think we are getting awfully far afield from the issues in this case. So if you could try. And I really would like to give you as much leeway --
MR. TAJDIN: Mr. Brian --
MR. GRAY: Let me finish.
MR. TAJDIN: This is going just -- like, how long are you going to talk? Because we want to put it brief. You have said what you have to say. So can I continue asking my questions?
MR. GRAY: You interrupted me, but fine, go ahead.
BY MR. TAJDIN:
Q. Okay. Mr. Bhaloo, the book on which you have written an affidavit contains talika and farmans; right?
A. Clarify that?
Q. There is this Affidavit -- you are saying in your Affidavit that you are making this Affidavit in support of the Plaintiff's motion for summary judgment and for no other purpose? The last line. Do you know the subject matter of this lawsuit?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Okay. Would you agree that it's on a book which contains talika and farmans?
A. Yes. It contains farmans, yes.
Q. Does it contain talikas also?
A. I have not read the Golden Edition book, so I would no know. This is the first time I'm looking at it.
MR. GRAY: The witness is referring to a book sitting on the table here in the examination room.
BY MR. TAJDIN:
Q. You have written an affidavit in support of the motion. Have you read the motion? Did you read the motion?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. So you know it's about farmans and talika book?
A. It is for summary judgment.
Q. It doesn't matter what summary judgment on what subject?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. Okay. Is it on a book which was printed with farmans and talikas?
A. I remember the farman. I don't know about the talikas.
MR. GRAY: If it helps, we'll admit that the book contains farmans and talikas. If that helps you, we'll admit that.
BY MR. TAJDIN:
Q. Yes. And I will not go through the 15 or 12 ceremonies which accompany the reading of a talika. I will just ask you one general question: When a talika is read, there are a lot of religious ceremonies surrounding the reading of the talika; yes or no?
A. Mr. Tajdin, these are matters for those who have been initiated into the faith, and they are not matters for public discussion, and I will not get into that.
Q. Okay. Mr. Bhaloo, I'm not sure what to ask because it looks like you are very much on the defensive and whatever I would ask would not bring me any kind of reply.

Both Sachedina and Bhaloo agree that they are in goodterms with the defendants. In the Case of Alnaz Jiwa, they don't recall ever interacting with him. In the case of Nagib Tajdin, they claim cordial, even warm relations with him, admit that he has never acted unrespectfully against either of them, and that his family was well-respected until the Announcements and the Lawsuit.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

---

N. Tajdin #561:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. ...Mr. Sachedina has no power to consent to the publication of Farmans?
A. I agree.
Q. You agree with that, okay. But you also agree with me that Mr. Sachedina does speak to His Highness from time to time?
A. I am sure he does.
Q. And he does convey messages from His Highness to you? For instance, he conveyed messages about blessings for your family, right?
A. Yes, he did.

---

Sachedina #328:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. In fact, in the plane ride you were going to and coming back from Syria in 2001, you know there were two other individuals with Mr. Tajdin?
A. I'll tell you now I have no recollection of who these individuals are or what they do. I have to tell you that. Because I did not look at them from that view. Because my relationship with Nagib has always been maintained on a real cooperative and in a manner of not adversarial at all.
MR. GRAY: Until now.

---

Sachedina #580 - #585:
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
MR. TAJDIN: Okay. Shafik, I have a problem because we have been close and I have been calling you 'Shafik,' and I think I will be calling you 'Mr. Sachedina' so at least there is a consistency. But just for court, not between us. I hope you don't mind. It's not meant to be disrespect or distance between us.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TAJDIN:
Q. Shafik, you know me since quite a few years now, and we bump into each other at many, many places. I think in Syria, in Cairo, recently in Zanzibar at the opening of the Forodhani Park. Even Nairobi you came for the nation's 50 years?
Q. That was the opening that His Highness also came. And you see me sometimes taking pictures, videos. And would you say that I always remain at a respectable distance of the Imam?
A. Absolutely.
Q. I have never tried to overstep. And would you accept that probably this is because we have a code of conduct, that unless the Imam allows, we would not approach within his privacy area or his short distance or -- you agree to that?
A. Yes, you travel all over the world. I know that, and obviously you travel wherever His Highness goes.
Q. Exactly.
A. And you are around and I know that you show yourself there.
Q. And I never tried to overstep and go and talk and bother him with anything? And that code of conduct also says that unless the Imam allows, we should not talk to him or even give a gift. Even to give a gift, we have to get permission. If Imam note or make a sign that we are allowed, then we approach and we always -- even during deedars it's always in submission; right?
--- Off-the-record discussion.

---

Sachedina #635 - #637
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. Okay. Mr. Sachedina, you know my family since a long time also. It's not a family which is disputing all the time with the leadership; right? And you know our relation, we are always respectful and I have never raised my voice; right? Is it right?
A. We've always had a civil discussion.
Q. Right. And we have always been taking tea together when we bump into each other in many countries; right? Right? Yes, I --
A. Yes, well, we have not all the time, but when I am there and you have offered me sometime, I've always had a cup of tea with you.
Q. Okay. And vice-versa?
A. Absolutely.

---

Bhaloo #114 - #121:
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. Mr. Bhaloo, you know me at least since 20 years, I think?
A. (Deponent nods head up and down).
Q. We have always had very amicable relations?
A. We still have.
Q. And we still. And when you were president, vice-president, I was living in your jurisdiction in Canada. And would you agree that we have never had a fight?
A. I generally don't like to fight.
Q. And I also don't like to fight. So there is no -- and there has never been any fight between us. I've never raised the tone with you. I have always been respectable; you agree to that?
A. (Deponent nods head up and down).
Q. And you would say the same thing of my family?
THE DEPONENT: All right. I know your family.
Q. You know my family and we are all civilized people; right?
A. Right.
Q. I think we also have some family relation from the mother's side or something; right?
A. Generations ago maybe, yes.
Q. Generations to generations. Okay. Would you agree that may family is well respected in the jamat -- let me rephrase that -- was well respected in the jamat before this announcement and this lawsuit and -- was it very respected? Yes? No?
A. Yes.

Mr Sachedina's role a head of the department of jamati institutions is not a constitutional position, and the department of Jamati institutions cannot give new directions to institutions. Ismaili Institutions do not report to Mr. Sachedina. He coordinates their work, but ultimately, the institutions are answerable to the Imam.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

---

Sachedina #206:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. Now, would you agree with me that your appointment as the Head of the Department of Jamati Institutions and Head of the Department of Diplomatic Affairs at Aiglemont and a Member of Aga Khan Development Network and a Member of the Board of Governors have not been read in jamat khanas by way of talika as other institution appointments?
A. Correct. Because these are all held at the behest of the Imam at the time of his pleasure.

---

Sachedina #220 - #228:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. So when you say 'coordinating,' what do you coordinate?
A. The budgets of the institutions.
Q. Right.
A. The plans we coordinate.
Q. Right.
A. Their activities in terms of what is to be done within the guidance given the Imam of the Time, these institutions are operating within those guidance that he has given.
Q. Do they report to you?
A. Who?
Q. Those institutions?
A. They report -- all of them are appointed by Mowlana Hazar Imam. So first and foremost, all of them are accountable to the Imam of the Time as institutional leaders. Because their appointment is not by me; it is by the Imam of the Time. I am coordinating their activities.
Q. So you cannot direct them what to do?
A. Unless given by the Imam. And I also would be able to look at the directions that the Imam has given that may need to be followed through as guidance for these institutions. So I coordinate that between the Imam and this institution in terms of the functioning of that institution.
Q. So, for example, ITREB Ontario, you say you are also coordinating them?
A. No. Ontario -- first of all, the point of reference is the national ITREB, according to the Constitution. So the national bodies are the ones that we coordinate at the imamat level.
Q. Right.
A. There are regional bodies and there are local bodies. Those are not coordinated in the sense that they are national jurisdiction.
Q. So when you use the word 'coordination,' if I say that your responsibility was just passing messages back and forth the documents that come back to the Imam from the various institutions, you just organize them and send it over to the Imam if necessary?
A. No. If the institutions have a number of issues, their first point of reference in terms of their activities in terms of their what I call 'functional work,' that is the administrative work, the work that they are doing, the point of reference is the Department of Jamati Institutions at Aiglemont through the ITREB coordinator who coordinates, first of all, all the tariqa board activities.

---

Sachedina #578 - #579:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. Mr. Sachedina, as head of the Department of Jamati Institutions, the position that you hold, it's not a position that's recognized by our Ismaili Constitution; it's just appointed by His Highness?
A. It's a position that has been at the behest of the Imam.
Q. Yes, but it's not under the Constitution; it's by his Secretariat?
A. Yes. The Constitutional -- or the position under the Constitution is only the LIF, and I only sit on the LIF on behalf of His Highness as a member of the LIF.

It turns out that Alnaz has no role in the publication and a minimal role in the distribution of the KIZ Farman book series. The reason he was included in the lawsuit seems to be due to a confusion on Mr Sachedina's part.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

---

Jiwa #145 - #178:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. Now, turning to Exhibit C in your...Mr. Tajdin's original affidavit, this is the Golden Edition that you were involved in?
A. Yes.
Q. And have you been involved in the printing of this book?
A. No, I have not.
Q. Have you been involved in the distribution of the book?
A. Yes.
Q. How many of these books were printed?
A. I don't know.
Q. How many have you distributed?
A. I think I have distributed about 80.
Q. Eighty?
A. Yes.
Q. And you distributed these, I take it, by your LISTSERV?
A. No.
Q. You didn't distribute this by the LISTSERV?
A. No. The copies that I sold...one mailed to Chicago. I received a personal e-mail from a person that I have communicated with in the past.
Q. Okay.
A. The rest are all personal within the GT A.
Q. Personal in the GTA, so you...friends or relatives or people you know?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And what about your LISTSERV, ILM...you have a LISTSERV, ILM?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. ILM...
A. ILM-net, yes. It is out of University of Manitoba.
Q. And is that something that is a website or it is just something you send out a broadcast e-mail?
A. It is just a broadcast e-mail.
Q. And you distribute the books through that?
A. Not this Golden Edition.
Q. Not the Golden Edition?
A. No.
Q. And some of the earlier books that Mr. Tajdin has, you distributed through your LISTSERV?
A. I have never distributed any through the...other than this one book, I never distributed anything...well, I sent a few to my family in Kenya, but other than that, I have not distributed any over the mail.
Q. Okay.
A. All the books that I distributed are strictly personal. Like, personal meetings, one-to- one. I often deliver them myself.
Q. And the selling price for the book?
A. This Golden Edition is $50.
Q. And the printing price, the cost to you?
A. The cost to me is $50.
Q. The cost to you is $50?
A. Yes. Canadian.
Q. You don't know what the printing price is?
A. I don't know.
Q. And when did you start doing this?
A. I think I got the first batch just before Christmas. Because it was during the Christmas holidays that I visited family and I...yes, I have given them out.
Q. And are you still doing it?
A. I have been too busy lately, so I have not done any lately.
Q. So you have stopped, then?
A. I haven't stopped, but, as I told you, mostly I sell them to personal contacts.
Q. When is the last one you distributed, then, or sold?
A. I think I gave two copies to my brother. He came to pick it up from me. It is about a month. Maybe three, four, five weeks ago.
Q. Three or four or five weeks ago.
A. Yes.
Q- And before that, the two copies to your brother; before that, when was the last one you sold or distributed or gave away?
A. Before that, after listening to this, one of my client's family picked up, I think, four books from me.
Q. And when was that?
A. I am not sure, but I think this is around the time Haz Imam was here. Around May.
Q. Around the end of May?
A. Yes. Mostly this time I have been selling only to people that I have known and in contact with. So, I normally even when my clients come in I don't normally tell them to buy this. But if they hear from somebody else, they might come and ask me.
Q. And how about the audio bookmark? Did you have any involvement in the production of that?
A. No. I have nothing to do with production.
Q. Nothing to do with the production.
A. Yes.
Q. And any involvement in the collection of the audio speeches?
A. No.
Q. Why does the book not identify a publisher; do you know?
A. You know, Nagib told me once...this was way before. I actually asked him this, I said, 'You know what? There should be some contact on there', because quite often people would tell me they don't know...when I sent to my cousin, my first cousin in Kenya, and so they ask for it but I say I normally don't ship them. I don't even I have time. So I told him, I said, 'You should put at least one number or something', and he says, 'Look, we are doing this...so we don't...' my understanding is Nagib is also selling to people that he know, that he knows at this time. So, it has never been, sort of, an issue that we are going to be mass distribution sort of.
Q. Right.
A. So that was my understanding. You know, it is just being sold...and my understanding also is the reason that he put it into book form is he normally was giving photocopies of it and that was taking too much time and energy and they were being, sort of, not placed properly at people's homes. Loose copies.

---

Jiwa #187 - #205:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. Do you pay Mr. Tajdin for the books?
A. I don't pay to Mr. Tajdin. I pick them up from a local distributor here.
Q. Who is the local distributor?
A. I won't name him now.
Q. You won't name him now. And where do you...
A. Mr. Sachedina knows them.
Q. And who do you pay?
A. To him.
Q. If Mr. Sachedina knows them, why wouldn't you tell me?
A. Because most of the stuff that is going on in the affidavits is becoming public on the websites. There is a new website that has opened recently. So, people do get harassed. Even I get harassed. So that is the reason.
Q. I see. Well, you...
A. I haven't paid him yet. I owe him for the 50 books...for the 96, I believe, I picked up. I haven't even collected the monies, because most of them are my family and friends.
Q. I see. So, 96 books, you haven't collected the money. And of the 96, you have distributed 80...
A. About 80 I have distributed.
Q. So you probably have 16 left then?
A. About 16 or so, yes. I mean, I haven't counted but it is in that range. I have collected some money, but not all.
Q. So your evidence is you have not sold the books over the web?
A. No.
Q. So, when I show you this...let's see. Excuse me. I am going to show you Exhibit 14. That is not you selling the book on the web; that is Ismaili.net ?
A. Well, this is Ismaili.net .
Q. Right, so you have not...
A. I have no connection with Ismaili.net .
Q. And you haven't sold them through the ILM-net?
A. Through ILM-net I put this brochure on as advertising, but frankly I don't have enough time and I primarily have been giving it only to family and friends.
Q. So you have put that brochure on the ILM-net?
A. ILM-net, yes.
Q. The ILM-net, you have put that brochure on?
A. Yes.
Q. So you have advertised the book on the 'net?
A. Yes, I have. No, not on the 'net. You can't call it the web. ILM-net is...
Q. Through electronic e-mail distribution, let me put it that way.
A. Let me put it this way: ILM-net is a group of, if I can say, friends or Ismailis that I admit. So you cannot become a member, even if you are an Ismaili, just like this. So it is like me sitting at home with my friends. So it is a restricted ILM-net.
Q. Restricted Internet circulation; would that be fair?
A. Yes. I only admit them if I do; otherwise I don't admit them. So nobody can join in automatically.
Q. Are you involved at all in Ismaili.net?
A. No, I am not.
Q. You are not an editor of it?
A. I have nothing to do with it. don't even have time if I wanted to.

---

Sachedina #638 - #639:
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. ...Now, here I read in number 28. This is something which I have always had this question in my mind, that you seem to think that Mr. Jiwa operates a website. And I was surprised to read that. Were you thinking that he's co-operating my website or was it another website?
A. I think -- I didn't know about this. You told me that.
Q. I told you that Mr. Jiwa is operating a website?
A. Yes. Yes. No, you said to me in your email when you were trying to remove the book from the website --

---

Sachedina #642:
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. Mr. Sachedina, I never wrote that Mr. Jiwa. Can you bring this --
A. Yes. Am I allowed to --

---

Sachedina #647-650:
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. Okay. I'm talking about the fact that you're mentioning Mr. Jiwa's website. Which website --
A. It's your website. I'm talking about your website.
Q. No, but what you are writing here, 'operated by Mr. Tajdin and Alnaz'?
A. Yes, because -- I am trying to explain to you, Nagib Tajdin, that the letter -- the email you sent me -- first you said to me the book has been removed from the website.
Q. Yes.
A. Your website. And then you said to me -- then I complained to you that the book is still being advertised and there is still a thread there on the website because it's still being advertised. So you said to me, 'Shafik, don't worry,' and 'I have spoken to Alnaz Jiwa, who will ensure that this will be taken care of.'
Q. Okay, can we have in the undertaking that I need a copy of the email?
MR. GRAY: We'll get you a copy of that email.
--- UNDERTAKING

---

Sachedina #653 - #663:
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. Did you not tell me to tell Alnaz not to write these things he was writing about, the farman book and the Constitution and all those things?
A. I -- sorry. Nagib, I am not aware of that conversation --
Q. You don't remember?
A. -- because I don't know Alnaz Jiwa at all. It's the first time today formally that I've actually met Alnaz Jiwa.
Q. Okay. Can we agree then, can we agree, would you agree -- is this the way to ask the question? Would you agree that if in this undertaking you bring the email and it doesn't say that I will ask Mr. Jiwa to remove from his website, there has never been a question of Mr. Jiwa having a website and this conversation which you are saying?
A. I didn't know whether he -- I thought he was connected with the website because if he could do what you gave him instructions from the website, I presumed he's involved with the website. That's the only connection I have.
Q. Is this why his name was put on the lawsuit?
A. He has -- he was part of this, he was involved with this, and I --
Q. Part of the publication?
A. I think that all the people who were involved in the sense that they were known, were people who are engaged with this website. And because Alnaz I think also had posted on the website a thing that he said that I have -- you know, after the announcement was made, he had a very long email saying that --
Q. Okay. So you are referring to his email list?
A. Yes.
Q. What's posted on his email list, not on his website?
A. Well, to me, it's electronic and -- all of this, from my point of view, is a methodology of --
Q. Mr. Sachedina, then on the lawsuit it says the same thing. But the Imam, who is a graduate from Harvard, he knows the difference between an email list and a website. But it says that Mr. Jiwa is operating a website; isn't it true?
A. I don't think I've said to you this website, because it's your website in which he has been associated. So he obviously has connection with the website. So to me he is involved with the website.
Q. So if this email that you will produce as an undertaking doesn't say this, you will accept that it's not there; right?
A. As I said to you, I don't have the words here.
MR. GRAY: If the email doesn't say it, then it doesn't say it. We'll accept that.
BY MR. TAJDIN:
Q. Yes. Because for the moment I am hearing that I have written that Mr. Jiwa had a website?
A. No. No. I didn't say that Mr. Jiwa -- as I said, you said in your email that when I complained to you that the book is still being advertised and there is still a thread there, you said to me -- you sent me an email to say that 'I have asked Alnaz Jiwa, who will actually deal with this matter and make sure that there is no reference to this.' So immediately I realized that and you and Alnaz are involved with this website.
Q. Okay. So let's have the email which will prove conclusively that it is not right, and we can all --
MR. GRAY: Or that it is right, as the case may be.
MR. TAJDIN: Yes. And if it is right, I will make my apologies to Mr. Sachedina. And I hope also --
MR. GRAY: We'll look forward to that.
MR. TAJDIN: And vice-versa, I hope; right?
MR. GRAY: Well, it's --
MR. TAJDIN: I guess this means no.
THE DEPONENT: Well, it's my best recollection. I wish I hadn't got -- but I haven't got the papers here, so.

It turns out that in order to protect the trust that Jamati institutions have with the Jamat, the defendants had not publicized their knowledge of forgery until after the Lawsuit was filed when they no longer had the choice.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

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N. Tajdin #152 - 158:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. ...You received the letter that is now Exhibit 3, as you said, by e-mail?
A. Yes.
Q. Right.
A. First by e-mail, then I insisted to receive the original...
Q. Right.
A. ...and I received it after quite a long time, maybe three weeks.
Q. Right. And you said...
A. And I had to insist many, many times to get the original.
Q. And you received the original when?
A. Sometime in February, mid-February.
Q. February 13?
A. That is likely.
Q. But in the meantime, you sent the photocopy, didn't you, or the electronic copy you had received, you sent it to two experts for examination?
A. Yes, I did.

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N. Tajdin #179:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. Based on that, you are accusing Ms. Parkes of criminal behaviour, are you not?
A. Actually, it is not only because of the expertise. The content of the report...you know, for an Ismaili who will read this letter, it is very evident that His Highness has not written this letter, but the expertise was needed for people who are not Ismaili, who cannot, from reading the letter, know that this is not written by the Imam.
Q. I asked you a simple question. Based on the...at this point, you received only a photocopy of the letter...
A. Yes.

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N. Tajdin #187 - #251:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. Okay. But will you agree with me that...okay, let's deal with the next one. And you circulated this allegation of forgery, did you not, to other people?
A. I sent...yes, I sent to a couple of people.
Q. Who did you send it to?
A. I will not give you names.
Q. Okay.
A. If you want reason, I will give you reason why. Do you need a reason why...
Q. Sure. Why are you not giving me the names of the people you sent it to?
A. In this file, whenever there is a name which goes out, for example, Karim Alibhay, he gets harassed the whole day and night, he gets phone calls, threats, so I am not going to give any names.
Q. All right.
A. It would not be fair for the people, right?
Q. Right. But in any event, you circulated it to people who you knew were going to circulate it to other people?
A. No.
Q. You circulated...
A. No, when I circulated, it was under
the understanding that this was to be contained.
Q. But...
A. Even when I received the letter from...one of the original, from the president of the Aga Khan council in Nairobi, I had a small discussion with him, and he told me he didn't want me to talk to anyone about it, and I said, 'No, it has to be contained, because people will lose faith in the leadership if they know these things are happening'.
Q. So, then, you...
A. And it was not...
Q. How many people did you send the...
A. A couple of them.
Q. A couple of them? Two people, you sent the notice...
A. Two or three.
Q. ...you told them...two or three?
A. Yes.
Q. At that point?
A. Yes.
Q. Subsequently, you said you told other...
A. Well, after the lawsuit, it was apparent that everything would come to the light, so...
Q. Even before the lawsuit, you sent it to other people, didn't you?
A. No.
Q. Even before the lawsuit, it was widely known on the Ismaili Heritage website, wasn't it?
A. Before the lawsuit, no, absolutely not. There was nothing on that subject on ismaili.net before the lawsuit.

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Jiwa #206 - #253:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. Yes. So, when did Mr. Tajdin tell you about the forgeries of the letters, the alleged forgeries of the letter of January 24 or February 18?
A. I don't recall the exact date, but it was in...when he received the first letter. It may have been the very day or the next few days is when he told me that he had received a letter.
Q. And at that point he told you it was a forgery?
A. I don't think at that point he told me, but I was actually in disbelief when he told me that he has received a letter.
Q. You didn't believe that His Highness would have sent a letter telling you not to do it?
A. Yes. I was in disbelief and I said, 'You know what? I don't believe it'. The funny thing is he didn't send me a copy of the letter.
Q. Who is 'he'?
A. Mr. Tajdin did not give me a copy. He just told me that on the phone. and...
Q. So, you were in a state of disbelief
A. I was, yes. I was.
Q. But did Mr. Tajdin tell you at that time that the letter was a forgery?
A. You know what? I don't think he told me the very first day. I think he told me maybe a few days later.
Q. A few days later.
A. A few days later.
Q. Before he had sent it to an expert. He just knew it was a forgery?
A. Yes, before he sent it.
Q. And...
A. I suggested, I said, you know...actually, Nagib told me his mother told him that from the letters that she has, this is not Imam's signature at all. So I told Nagib, I said, 'Look, when we have a situation like that, we send it to an expert'. So I found the two names and I said, 'Let's send it for them'.
Q. And so you helped him send the two...the letters to an expert?
A. I didn't help him send. He sent it straight, because even after we received the reports, I did not see the letter.
Q. You didn't see the letter. But you saw the reports?
A. I saw the reports.
Q. And did you give the experts any instructions as to what to do?
A. No, I did not communicate with the experts, except for one I paid for. I paid for one of the experts.
Q. Which expert?
A. I would have to look it up. One of the two.
Q. One of the two, Carlson or Petinatti. I'm sorry, Carlson or...
A. Because, you know, Nagib's...
Q. It was not Ospreay, though?
A. Ospreay...the first two experts... one of the two I paid. One of the two I paid. Nagib's credit card was not going through. She was trying to ring it through and it wouldn't be accepted, so Nagib told me if I can pay. So then I paid from here.
Q. So...
A. I don't know. One of the two.
Q. Petinatti or Carlson?
A. Yes.
Q. Right. Okay. And how many other people did Mr. Tajdin tell about the forgeries?
A. In terms of experts?
Q. No, no, just in terms of people. He told you about the forgery; right?
A. I don't know. You know, the person that I buy the books from, I discuss with him.
Q. So he knew about the forgery?
A. Yes.
Q. This is the distributor of the books?
A. This is the distributor, yes.
Q. Or the alleged forgery.
A. The alleged forgery, right.
Q. And who else did Mr. Nagib tell? A. You know, I really don't know. I mean, Mr. Tajdin and I, although I have known him for almost some 20 years, but we have never been, sort of, friends. We have never visited...I have never visited his home or he my home. We essentially met at some seminars that...at first I met him when he organized a seminar on our Khojki...it is known as a Khojki script.
Q. Okay.
A. So, we have never been in a sense friends that I associated with. I mean, my interest from Nagib was just to get the Farmans from him.
Q. So, who else did you tell about the forgeries, then?
A. At the time it happened?
Q. Yes.
A. At the time it happened, I didn't discuss it with anybody.
Q. February, 2010.
A. I don't recall telling others.
Q. And when is the first time you told someone else about the forgery?
A. After the litigation started.
Q. After the litigation.
A. Yes.
Q. After what day?
A. April.
Q. April...
A. Whatever. It was in April. I first told my mom.
Q. Sorry?
A. I first told my mother.
Q. You first told your mother.
A. Of course.
Q. That is sweet.
A. She was at my home...so I did tell her.
Q. But that was after the litigation...
A. Yes.
Q. ...was started.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember when you told her about the forgeries?
A. To whom?
Q. When did you tell your mom?
A. I told my mom after the litigation started.
Q. Well, the litigation started in April.
A. Yes. I don't remember the date, but it was in April. I know after the litigation started.
Q. Was it before you filed your Statement of Defence...
A. Yes.
Q. ...alleging the forgeries?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay.
A. After that, I was telling everybody, including my sister. My whole family was in shock, of course.
Q. This was after you filed or when you filed the Statement of Defence?
A. Yes. Because before filing the Statement of Defence, the issue of even the prohibition and stuff was technically not public. And finally it was Mr. Tajdin who sort of...I don't even know all the distributors. I just know...
Q. The distributors all knew, and presumably they were telling people buying the books that...there were people...
A. At that time?
Q. Well, let's put it this way...
A. Before the litigation or after the litigation? There is a big difference between the two. Before the litigation...I am talking about before the litigation at the moment.
Q. Yes. Right.
A. Before the litigation, the only person who knew was Mr. Tajdin. Then he told me. And then there is this one distributor that I buy books from. I discussed with him about this.

It is the Imam's prerogative to decide who can print Farmans, and it can be anyone.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

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Sachedina #848 - #849:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. Would you say it's the prerogative of the Imam to decide who to tell to print the farman?
A. The ultimate authority when it comes to printing the farmans, publishing the farmans, Hazar Imam will direct. Any institution within his power, constitutional bodies, IIS -- anybody, he will decide who be able to do the printing.
Q. Does he have the right to give it to any other person?
A. Absolutely his complete prerogative.

Obviously, if there was a clear breach of the ismaili constitution, then this case would have been in the Arbitration board.
Discussions about the constitution have revolved around the specific clauses about Farmans that were included in previous constitutions but that have been removed from the newer constitution since 1986. Older constitutions distinguished between religious publications and Farmans. The clauses about Farmans were removed by the Imam, but the clauses about the other religious publications remained intact.

Sachedina maintains that the constitution has been breached and that in the case of Farmans, only the Imam can Publish or authorize publication, Not Itreb, not the Council. However, if the current constitution is to be relied on to prove the breach, then article 14.1c lets the Ismaili Council authorize publications (and this is how Mr Gray seems to understand it), and Article 8.4d gives the ITREB's the responsibility to publish. Neither article reserves the right for the Imam. This leaves us with Farmans to follow which say that Imam makes Farmans FOR Jamats.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

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N. Tajdin #580 - #584:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. And I am referring you to Article 14.1(c)?
A. Yes?
Q. And (c) says: '...Without the permission in writing of the National Council obtained through the regional council...' Have you ever requested the permission of the National Council under that article?
A. I didn't have to.
Q. I didn't ask you that. I just asked you, did you ever request the permission in writing of the National Council?
A. No, because I had consent from the Imam.
Q. Okay. And I take it you never asked...just to be specific, you didn't ask the permission in writing of the National Council to print or publish or circulate any material that is on behalf of, in the name of, or relating to Mawlana Hazar Imam, the plaintiff?
A. I don't believe it talks of Hazar Imam.
Q. I didn't ask you that, either. I asked you if you ever asked for the permission in writing...
A. No.

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Jiwa #45 - #48:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. Okay. I am showing you a copy of Exhibit 13, which I understand you have a copy still there from this morning.
A. Yes.
Q. And can you identify that as the Constitution of the Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims?
A. This is part of the constitution. Our constitution consists of two parts; the constitution and the rules and regulations for each country.
Q. Right.
A. The 1986 constitution that was distributed in Canada had within that document the constitution as well as rules and regulations. This is just the constitution. The rules and regulations are still embodied in the 1986 constitution.
Q. Okay. And can you produce the rules and regulations for me?
A. I can, yes.

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Jiwa #56 - #62:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. And in respect particularly to article 14.1(c), have you ever asked for permission in writing of the National Council obtained through
the regional councils to print or publish or circulate any material?
A. I don't need the council's permission.
Q. I didn't ask you that, Mr. Jiwa. I asked you if you ever...
A. No, because you are...
Q. Please answer the question.
A. You are referring to 14.1(c), so if you are going to refer to 14.1(c) then I am going to say I don't need their permission.
Q. Well...
A. So if you want to ask me without referring to the 14.1(c), then you can ask me without referring to that and I have already answered you earlier that I did not.
Q. Right, so...
A. If you are going to ask me pertaining to this, then I don't need consent...
Q. That isn't the question I asked you. I asked you if...
A. You are referring me to 14.1.
Q. I asked you if you ever asked for permission in writing of the National Council obtained through the regional council to print or publish or circulate any material: Yes or no?
A. You already asked me earlier, and I said no.

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Sachedina #261 - #269:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. I'm going to go back to that. I said to you: Is there any farman or any article in the Constitution that says that farmans cannot be released for distribution to the jamats before the Imam has edited and approved them? That's my question.
A. It is not in the Constitution, but that's a process established by the present Imam.
Q. So what I'm saying to you --
A. Imam is above the Constitution, I explained to you. He transcends the Constitution in a sense that even if the Constitution is there, Imam has a right to do what he wishes to do. He has the authority to change or to decide or to alter or to do whatever he wishes to do.
Q. I'll come back to that in a second. I just want to focus on the question that I asked you. My question, and I'm going to repeat it again: Is there any article in the Constitution or is there any farman that says before any farman that has been made by the Imam, before it is distributed to the jamats, has to be edited and approved by the Imam? That's my question.
A. Not in the way that you describe.
Q. Now, you said earlier -- as you were just answering this issue, I see your lawyer is pointing you to something?
A. The same --
MR. GRAY: Article 14.1(c).
THE DEPONENT: That's the one that I read. Because you're talking about the issue of editing and the issue about farmans, and this to me is the article. That's why I quoted you that article.
Q. Sir, the article that you are quoting me, the 14.1 that your lawyer also is pointing you to see, show me where does it say that it's the Imam who is going to edit and approve before they are released. On the
contrary, it seems to suggest that National Council can do that decision. You are saying all along that the Imam approves and edits farmans?
A. National Council has no authority to edit farmans.
Q. But you're pointing to this --
A. No, it's not. I'm talking about, very clearly, the provisions in this Constitution that gives unfettered right to the Imam.
Q. Okay. 14.1(c), where does it say the Imam has to approve or it gives him the unfettered right, 14.1(c)?
A. No, but it's Imam you're talking about that there is -- anybody who prints, publishes or circulates any material.
Q. But this is not my question. I mean --
A. The questions you are asking is Imam edits, is it in the Constitution, and I'm saying to you not the way as you've described it in the Constitution. I'm saying there are provisions but not the way about editing
or the way that you describe, it's not that.
Q. Now, I'm suggesting to you that what you are saying is simply your opinion and perhaps Mr. Keshavjee's opinion and perhaps other leaders' opinion. But I say to you that the Constitution nor any farman says that a farman that's been made by the Imam may not be distributed to the jamat before it's edited and authorized by the Imam?
MR. GRAY: You've already indicated these are questions of opinion. The Constitution is here. The interpretation of the Constitution I'm sure you will argue before a judge. We'll read the words of the Constitution, and so far as it's relevant, we'll deal with it as a matter of interpretation.
THE DEPONENT: I take my instructions from His Highness, and that's what His Highness has conveyed to me.

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Sachedina #370 - 388:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. Now --
A. For the present time, this Imam has authorized the ITREBs to be the body, relevant body for publications or, rather, distributions of all the religious matter, according to the constitution.
Q. There is nothing in the Constitution that says ITREB has been given this power?
A. It is there. If you come back to that ITREB, as I say to you, if you look at the -- all the materials relevant to the Islam and the Ismaili tariqa, that if you look at --
Q. Which clause?
A. 8.4(d). And that is the role. If you look at tariqa and Religious Education Board, if you look at that, it says, '...undertake the publication of books and material on relevant aspects of Islam and the Ismaili
Tariqah;'
Q. And he talks of books and materials; right?
A. Yes. On Ismaili tariqa, farmans are part of the tariqa material.
Q. All right. But it doesn't specify farmans, does it?
A. It's included. It's inclusive.
Q. So why --
A. Ismaili tariqa has material, and the tariqa board is responsible, and farmans are part of the Ismaili tariqa, and the doctrine of the Ismailis, sir.
Q. Isn't that contradictory to everything you've been saying to date?
A. What?
Q. You are completely contradictory. You are contradicting yourself, sir, aren't you?
A. What -- the farmans --
Q. You --
A. Release of the farmans, this is the body that actually releases the farmans for the jamat. The process we're talking about, earlier on you said ITREBs, and I said ITREB, yes.
Q. Fine. So if you look at 8.4(b) and if that is your jurisdiction to say ITREB has jurisdiction over farmans, then why do you need Hazar Imam's approval?
MR. GRAY: Look at the beginning of 8.4.
BY MR. JIWA:
Q. Where does it say --
A. It is always done under the behest of the Imam.
Q. Excuse me, sir, where does it say that approval for approval for publication of farmans --
A. If you read 8.4, it says: 'Each Tariqah and Religious Education Board shall under the direction and guidance of Mawlana Hazar Imam.' Not without his directions or guidance. And I want to point out to you it will therefore under Imam's direction undertake the publication of books and materials of relevance to Islam and Ismaili tariqa. The distribution process is part of the responsibility of the tariqa board once given authorization by the Imam of the Time. Does that not make sense to you?
Q. No, it doesn't, because it is one thing to say under the direction and guidance of Mowlana Hazar Imam, and it's another thing to say you need his prior approval. If you look at the Rules and Regulations, if you
look at the Rules and Regulations, function 24, those are the powers that have been granted to each local tariqa board.
A. But that's local tariqa board. You're talking about the national tariqa boards. Because the farmans, I kept on telling you, they come to the national boards, not the local boards.
Q. Right.
A. It's the national board that directs them.
Q. All right. Now -- and this is what you are saying is a breach of the Ismaili Constitution?
A. The article -- in my view, both article 14.1(c) and article 8.4(d) are -- very much work together.
Q. Right. And those are your authority --
A. And I've told you --
Q. Yes?
A. -- there's the Constitution. You have -- the letter from the Imam of the Time telling him not to do that. You have the second letter from the Imam to tell you not to do that. You have an affirmation that says not to do that. And then you also have very clearly the Statement of Claim which was filed by the Mr. Plaintiff, the Imam of the Time saying I don't want you to do that.
Q. Sir --
A. So there are four documents telling you not to do that. Five documents now.
Q. Those documents you know are being disputed by us. But we'll come to that. We'll come to that.

This is a simple question, but Mr. Bhaloo, although he has been swearing to protect the constitution for decades, refused to answer the question on the grounds that he is not a constitutional expert.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

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Sachedina #141 - #149:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. And would you also agree with me, sir, that a farman of the Imam remains valid and binding until it's superceded either by that Imam or a later Imam?
A. By any pronouncement by the Imam.
Q. Yes.
A. By even a letter to somebody or a talika or farman. He can actually any time in the way, the words of the Imam in a way, the present Imam, anything in the Constitution says his words would actually precede -- it's beyond the Constitution from that point of view.
Q. You said 'letter' by the Imam. That's known as a talika, t-a-l-i-k-a?
A. A talika is usually sent -- talika is sent to the jamat.
Q. And they're read in jamat khanas?
A. Yes.
Q. So my previous question was that all Ismailis are obligated to follow the farmans of the Imam. The latest farman supersedes the previous farman?
A. Well, the farmans can be valid according to time and context of the present Imam's farmans. They were given in a particular time, in a particular context, in particular circumstances.
Q. Yes.
A. So they remain valid for that particular jamat, and unless Imam says to them that these are my new farmans to you, then they supersede and he would say that they supersede the --
Q. And he also said that individuals can also be guided by the Imam?
A. Yes.
Q. Right? And if that individual is guided by the Imam, then that is binding on him irrespective of what he might have said in a general farman?
A. That is given to a particular individual in particular circumstances for that particular purpose. It is not applicable to everybody. It's applicable to that one individual who has sought.
Q. Who has sought?
A. Guidance.

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Bhaloo #30:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. And would you agree with me that after the date of the Constitution, His Highness can make a farman, and if there is an inconsistency with this farman and the Constitution, the farman prevails?
A. I'm not sure about that.

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Bhaloo #127- #128:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. Can you read that to me, loud voice please?
A. 1.6: 'The Constitution, and in the event of conflict the Constitution...'
Q. From the title. And read it slowly so she can type.
A. Okay. 'These Rules and Regulations shall be read with '(a) the Constitution, and in the event of conflict the Constitution shall prevail; and '(b) any Farman made after the date hereof, and in event of conflict the said Farman shall prevail, and a later Farman shall prevail over an earlier.'

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Bhaloo #133:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. Okay. You have read the Constitution. We have just read article 1.6. In your understanding, does it say that a farman which is made after the Constitution will supersede any article of the Constitution if there is a conflict?
A. I am not sure about that. I'm not an constitutional expert.

Mr. Sachedina dispels the rumours that someone else is allowed to sign for the Imam.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

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Sachedina # 503
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. Do you know if anybody other than Hazar Imam signed this?
A. No way can anybody sign a letter that's purporting to be from the Imam of the Time.

The Farman Dissemination Policy document of March 2010, submitted to court by the Plaintiff party, does not come from the Imam or from Aiglemont, it comes from Mohamed Manji.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

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Sachedina #306 - #309:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. I'm going to ask you to refer to your Affidavit's Exhibit B in your Affidavit. Now, this says, 'ITREB Canada Farman Dissemination Process.' And you've given this as part of your evidence. And where did you get this from?
A. This is a document that has been the process that they follow in Canada, and I asked them just to make sure -- that the Imam wanted to see what the process was. So that's what they put down, is a process which has been what is in place in Canada.
Q. And so who gave this to you?
A. It came from the National Council president.
Q. From Canadian president?
A. Yes. Because it was through the ITREB Canada to give to the president and it has come. Because it was a process that we just wanted to make sure that what is the process followed, and that's what they have given, that this is the process they followed.
Q. All right.
A. And it was given to me, and I also submitted this to Hazar Imam.